Exo Sports Cars Ltd - The OTHER rocket...

[mabbs]

Points taken kiwi. I am not here to fly the flag of RTR or Exo Cars or take sides. Yes my experience was good as was many others when I was building my car with RTR and Stuart. I can see there are people on here who have had some bad experiences and some good for which I am sure there are reasons. I don't think we should discuss or make judgement on who has the rights to manufacture as that is down to the business owners, that's not our discussion as far as I am concerned and forum members should not make criticism on this, I feel that is down to Stuart to police. My issue is the negativity on the forum compared to when I used to be active on here which is that Exo cars have now built a newly developed car called Rocket 2. I am looking to build another open type car and coming back here to see what was happening in the world. Maybe I am a bit blinkered as I have not heard all the stories, but from what I read on here the negativity is from them building a new design stemmed from a car they used to manufacture. Again, all this negative talk will not just be here to look to hurt Exo Cars, it will also fuel people to consider if they want to get involved with MEV also - as Bobmick. I am sure we all agree that Bobmick's first post should not be asking the questions he has. ATB. Jon

[BobN]

Hi all

Everyone had good and bad experiences but we are enjoying our car now which is what counts. Let the manufacturers sort their own difference out.

As moderator I am going to move this entire thread to waste paper basket by this afternoon. It's not adding any value to Bobmick or any other potential customers.

Bobmick is right to do his due diligence and I am sure will make a decision that is right for him.

[skyquake]

Bob,

I'm afraid I totally disagree with moving this to the waste paper basket. One of the key reasons why people like myself are confused about what the deal is with the manufacturers and the competing similar cars of the same name, is that threads like this which discuss the situation, seem to get deleted.

I feel this is an important topic, and that people have a right to know if there are historical problems with particular manufacturers.

Kind regards,

Mike

[mabbs]

I absolutely agree with Mike on this. Bob, I appreciate you are moderator, but totally disagree that this discussion needs to be brushed under the carpet, and as far as I am concerned does add value to MEV. Bobmick is new and asked a question, so how many others are there thinking the same and have not voiced an opinion or asked questions on here, the WWW is very big and this forum is easy to find which is bad for us and the industry if not discussed democratically. This needs to be aired and policed, unless you are vigilant to delete all non constructive positions on the subject, which again is not democratic. As Bobmick has said, it seems to be very one sided and I am sure that is not the case, or maybe it is? I agree we should let the manufacturers sort out there differences, but that is not happening on this forum. We lost some good forum members when I was active on here, I am sure some will remember, and need to attract more. ATB, Mabbs.

[mawdo81]

Mike I understand your point but also bear in mind the positive friendly forum we are trying to encourage here please. Mabbs points about the negativity being off putting are well made. There is also plenty of information publicly available on resources such as companies house which tell their own story with regards to historical problems.

[mabbs]

Apr 1, 2016 9:38:51 GMT mawdo81 said:

Mike I understand your point but also bear in mind the positive friendly forum we are trying to encourage here please. Mabbs points about the negativity being off putting are well made. There is also plenty of information publicly available on resources such as companies house which tell their own story with regards to historical problems.

Hi Mawdo81,

Not everyone has access to company house, and with all due respect, decipher the information on there, but everyone has access to this forum and in general people will use the shortest route of information as fact/persuasion of truth - Tabloid springs to mind !! Financial details are also not what we are discussing here and I feel bares little to the negative talk.

Jon

[mawdo81]

Thanks Jon, I take your points on board, however the basics of company formation and the associated difficulties are freely available and in the public domain, but you are right: That information is not as easy to find as this forum, nor would they be clear to all prospective builders either.

James

[skyquake]

James, All,

I agree entirely that this should be a positive friendly forum, and yourself and the other moderators do a great job of making sure that's the case. But I think that's entirely separate from censoring all conversation which discusses the merits of different manufacturers.

Now from my perspective, as a potential buyer, I was talking to RTR last year about purchasing a kit for myself. I was in a position to buy, but while doing my research, I started to become alarmed by some of the stories I had heard. What confused me, was that those stories didn't come directly from this forum, until I started really delving into the details of people's build diaries. Once you read into it, there are countless examples of poor workmanship, misaligned brackets and missing parts, with RTR kits (to be clear, I haven't seen any record of problems with SVE kits).   However, anything stating this clearly and directly could usually only be found briefly in the waste paper basket. Had I not received a word of mouth warning from a friend of mine, I wouldn't have looked as hard as I did.

As it happened, I never got the opportunity to make that mistake, as RTR ceased trading, and as I was completely and utterly in love with the Sonic by this point, my build plans were mothballed.

Essentially for me therefore, this is all history. The Sonic is going back into production with Angus of Equilibrium Kit Cars, and having spoken extensively to him about it, I have absolute confidence that the kit I will be buying shortly will be of top quality.

However, were I a Rocket fan and not a Sonic lover, the decision would not be as clear cut. If I were shopping around now, I find myself in an odd position. There are two aesthetically very similar vehicles, both named the Rocket (2, mk2 or whatever), which are in development with two different manufacturers (there's also the rocket classic of course). As I understand it, the SVE (RTR) Rocket 2, is a completely new vehicle which claims to be based upon the Rocket Classic. However, it can't be based upon the Rocket Classis, as this is a copyrighted design owned solely by Brimoto. The officially sanctioned (and by sanctioned, I mean Stuart Mills approved) Rocket 2 is also, as I understand it, to be manufactured by Brimoto.

From my perspective at least, the fact that SVE are being permitted to continue selling their vehicle as the Rocket mk2, and advertising it as being the next generation of the original MEV Rocket is misleading.

I certainly don't wish to defame anyone, upset of offend anyone or any companies. But I feel strongly that people like myself, (who are about to part with a very large amount of money), deserve to have access to honest feedback. The fact that threads like this seem to keep getting deleted only adds to the confusion!

Kind regards,

Mike

[BobN]

I take note of everyone's comments and will not move this thread.

[bobmick]

Having now read this thread again, I have had a long a frank conversation with Paul and Liam at Exo. I felt it prudent to do so given that I may well be placing several thousand of my hard earned pounds into their bank account in exchange for some metal tubes and a few bits of GRP.

Even though I am new to this forum, I have followed the RTR/MEV/Exo story for a long time (kit car builders tend to do this) and it's interesting to note that Exo/RTR have some very loyal supporters as well as serious detractors.

Firstly, I asked them why they took little part in forum activities during the last few months of trading as RTR. They told me that they had been unable to post on the forum during that period and as such, had not been allowed to put across their side of the story once it had been announced that RTR were having problems. 

Secondly, I asked them how many kits they had sold since 2009 (when RTR started) and they quoted a figure of approximately 300 kits in total which I have no reason to disbelieve.
I also asked about quality issues and they were open and honest about mistakes that were made and that there were products that left the factory that had some minor issues, most of which have been detailed on this forum and corrected in due course.

However, (and this is a big however) let's look at how few complaints there are in relation to the amount of metal shifted and put this into some kind of perspective. Let's also bear in mind that the complainants are on the whole still really enjoying their RTR manufactured products. So, why do they still berate this company?

Mawdo keeps talking about Companies House and the "Truth". The truth is very simple and is a matter of public record.

I feel it only right to quote Paul and Liam in respect of this as they are unable to do so on this forum (so I am led to understand).
RTR employed 12 members of staff and did it's utmost to keep their staff in work even though kit car sales had plummeted for the entire industry. Six kit car shows a year had become one show (Stoneleigh) and times were tough, but families were being fed by RTR wages so they hung on as long as possible.

They were advised early in 2015 by their accountant that their company RTR was no longer viable.
They therefore 'voluntarily liquidated' their company. Quote from companies house website, Mawdo, "13 Mar 2015 Appointment of a voluntary liquidator"

Instead of giving up, they incorporated Exo Sports Cars and had to use their own money to buy their own equipment back from the liquidator so that they could start again (they also had to deal with the announcement on this forum that they were bankrupt/bust which was clearly not true).

They had spent 6 years of hard work promoting the Rocket Kit Car as an entity and with the licence for the original Rocket returning to Stuart Mills, they announced last year that they would be producing a Rocket II. I am on their mailing list (as are many others here) so I know when this happened.

Stuart Mills had already sold the licence for his Rocket to a Czech company "We were very busy with Replicar and Exocet sales so we offered the project for sale internationally. We sold the "Rocket" licence to a large Czech firm." (Quote from this forum).
Another quote from Mills is as follows: "despite us using the name Rocket since 2006 the Light Car Company managed to slip in a registration for the trade mark Rocket in 2008 but are powerless to stop us using it" 

This clearly means that nobody has any more right than anybody else to the Rocket name.

Having spent the latter part of 2015 developing their car, Exo launched their Rocket II in January 2016 at Autosport. They manufactured the Rocket Classic (as they have now dubbed it) from 2009 to 2015 so feel totally justified in calling their car the Rocket II.

Brimoto bought a Rocket Classic kit from RTR in 2014 (according to RTR) and this is displayed on his website along with many other images of RTR manufactured cars. He is also launching a Rocket II having bought the original Rocket I moulds and jigs.
Brimoto can pool all of RTR and MEV's experience and should undoubtedly produce a decent product, but it will be interesting to see what moans they receive after they have made 300 kits.

I feel RTR/Exo have been truly misrepresented here, this forum would be a very dull place without the vehicles that they have manufactured which include every Atomic, Tr1ke/Triabusa, Mevabusa/Exobusa on this forum, every Rocket manufactured from 2009 onwards and every Sonic manufactured from 2010 that are on this forum (and every other forum for that matter).

Take away all of those vehicles and all of the build threads related to those vehicles and there would almost nothing here (other than the MX5 based vehicles), thus the reason for this somewhat lengthy posting. This may be the 'MEV' forum but RTR/Exo have contributed enormously to it's content.

So, ladies and gentlemen of this forum, you should think again about your attitude towards Exo Sports Cars. I've spent many years working in the USA where enterprise is truly valued. These guys have picked up the pieces of a company that was caught out by a rapidly shrinking market and have invested their own money into getting started again as a manufacturer and as an employer. They would be saluted in the US...

Time for some balance in this debate in my opinion.

I have throughly researched all that I have written here and unless I am told otherwise, I clearly believe everything I have written here to be true. 

If this thread is moderated, (or put in the wastebin) it will stand as proof that there is something very undemocratic and anti-Exo happening here

Bobmick.

Read more: mevowners.proboards.com/thread/7798/rocket-history#ixzz44l35O62E

Read more: mevowners.proboards.com/thread/7798/rocket-history#ixzz44kyeN7O8

[bobmick]

Mar 11, 2016 9:48:53 GMT skyquake said:

So, SVE have just posted up some pictures of 'their' 'new' nose for the infamous 'SVE Rocket II,' on their Facebook thread.

www.facebook.com/Exo-Sports-Cars-Ltd-107442586012326/

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a straightforward rip off of Stuart's new Exocet nose?

A bit of chicken and egg here. Exo outsourced the design of 'their' 'new' nose to Logan Black. One would assume he knows a thing or two about car design: link

According to the guys at Exo, the Ferrari 156 Sharknose and the BMW 507 were influences. Both 'nose' designs were presented at Autosport 2016 so go figure...

Bobmick.

[BobN]

Some valid points Bob even though we all probably don't know the full story from both sides...

Emotional blackmail won't help by saying if this thread gets moderated....etc

However I don't think your original question as to why there is so much supposed negativity towards ESC got answered.

Anyway I always tell everyone the same thing. Building cars is fun, buy from somewhere you are comfortable with then join their forums etc.


This thread debate needs to come to an end as its not productive to the larger MEV community. It does need to be moved to waste eventually. Before that it will be considered how to better communicate the history of the Rocket and clarify changes in licence holders etc so that new prospective confused buyers can get clarity. We don't want or have time to keep dragging up history, it's need to be documented and closed as a chapter.

Bob if you are at Stoneleigh come hunt me down (look for the short surprisingly handsome Indian) at the Mev club stand and we can have a open chat not matter what you buy.

Bob

[bobmick]

I disagree with you Bob. This thread has shown Kiwi's view which while negative in some respects is still balanced and has also been countered with comments by Mabbs and others. I don't intend making this my personal thread or even a crusade for a bunch of guys who have manufactured so many of the cars on this forum, but when Kiwi states the actions of Exo/RTR are morally repugnant, this is fine (even though over a 6 year period RTR must have paid tens of thousands in VAT/PAYE/NI etc thus contributing to society as a whole) yet I speak here to tell the story (as I see it) and the thread ends up 'in the bin'.

The moderation 'emotional blackmail' only served to let people continue to comment in respect of this.

i'm still undecided as to what to buy and where to spend money. Replicar is beauty and MX5 donors are so plentiful, Brimoto Rocket could also be stunning so needs viewing and Exo are in my opinion right up there when it comes to being a company to deal with and this ought to be better reflected on here IMHO.

You love your RTR manufactured Rocket, Bob, and that's very clear.

Bobmick.

[BobN]

We don't have to reflect how bad or good ESC or any other manufacturer are to deal with nor are we in a position to as we are a MEV only forum.

It's better to be neutral.

[mabbs]

i could not agree more that comments need to be neutral ! Only now after a new member having to delve has this now brought some areas to light that have not been mentioned before. Good response Bobmick, and I hope this has bought some level and understanding to others before the thread inevitably and reluctantly gets deleted. I appreciate this is now a forum closed to RTR and Exo Cars, but it is not appreciated that there is no level or defence not just from me but from others, and the forum is left to abuse. This is the MEV forum, for MEV memebers and MEV comments, I have no issue with that, as in everything just make sure we have the full picture before we comment. I will be purchasing a car at Stonleigh, and I have seen pics and development history of Exo Cars vehicle, which sounds pretty stunning, and can't wait to see MEV Rocket 2, but I want to see how both cars have developed and the quality before making my choice. I would like this thread to remain as it shows balance/understanding and as said before put it to rest, be respectful and move on. I am going over what has been already been said., but just one more thought. Me and Bobmick are new efectivly to this situation and the forum. The forum is for the 'larger MEV community', what about the NEW members wanting to understand as Bobmick... I am sure there will be others who will delve to find the balance of answers, which may cause negative feeling to MEV. This is my last reply to this thread. Jon