Zeitgeist's Mid-west OH race chassis #170 build

[gwnwar]

1999 does not have one..
Do you have a fully charged battery..
Cam and Crank position sensors plugged in. Crank sensor gaped right to tits on crank pulley .020" > .059"
Are the Black/Blue wires from cam and crank sensors and MAF grounded?
Have you checked the engine fuse 15A inside box.. Fuel Inj fuse 30A eng. box..
Main Relay eng. box G/R power from fuel inj fuse, B/W from eng. fuse key on, Black ground by pass. headlamp, W/L to fuel pump relay..
Have you jumped the F/P and the Grd. in the dia. box key on should start fuel pump.
Coils ground with lug to engine by throttle body a black wire from each coil..
Power to coils B/W from key on..
There are 2 connectors by inside blower location that look the same and are interchangeable..
Check black wires at fuel pump connector on tank for a good ground to frame

[zeitgeist]

Update of diagnostics so far.

I found a factory service manual online and am using the cranks but won't start guide to diagnosing the issue. First step is checking the connections,vacuum lines batt power,fuel quality and level etc.. I check these things again and found no issues.

Next step is download trouble codes via OBDII port and code reader. I tried this and got "Unable to establish link with vehicle" displayed. This is covered in the diagnosis chart and so I proceded to the next step for no connection with OBDII port.

This gives 6 steps all related to the main relay and wires connecting it to the ECU,ground and the main relay itself.

I removed the main relay from the under hood fuse box where it is listed as EGI MAIN.

Next I checked for voltage at the relay connection. Only 1 connection had voltage which was the top left when fuses are at the top and left side. It had 12.95V with key on.

Then I checked for continuity of each wire running from relay to various items.

Black wire from relay to passenger side multi ground under headlight showed continuity C
Blk/Wht from relay to Engine 15A fuse good same wire to coil was good and same wire to Heated O2 sensor was also good.
Grn/Red from relay to outside pin at 30A big fuse in same underhood box was 32 Ohms on 200K scale
Wht/red from relay to ECU wht/red input pin 1B showed continuity, same wire to the 2 purge valves on pass side of engine were good, same to VICS was good and same wire to EGR valve also had continuity. Same wire to MAF also had continuity.
White/blue wire from relay to 2 points on the fuel pump relay checked OK with continuity.

I then checked the Main relay which is supposed to have continuity between certain poles. I had no continuity between any 2 poles I checked. This seems like the Main relay is bad or stuck open. I pulled the cover off the main relay and found it heavily rusted/corroded.









Sorry the pics are blurry my camera is old and not very good.

I also found another relay had a broken housing.



I went to a local parts store with the relay and they ordered one due tomorrow at 8am.

With all that checked and relay on order I tried to go to the next step but I believe the relay is needed to proceed. The next step is check TPS sensor for 4.5-5.5 volts. I get nothing here but will try after relay is replaced.

I also checked with everything in place for voltage at the ECU pin 1B with key on. I got.58 volts so there is no real power getting to the ECU.

Any thoughts or things anyone can offer are appreciated.

[zeitgeist]

Apr 24, 2016 5:29:00 GMT gwnwar said:

1999 does not have one..
Do you have a fully charged battery..

Yes


Cam and Crank position sensors plugged in. Crank sensor gaped right to tits on crank pulley .020" > .059"

Both are plugged in I have not checked the gap yet.


Are the Black/Blue wires from cam and crank sensors and MAF grounded?

Yes checked these today.


Have you checked the engine fuse 15A inside box.. Fuel Inj fuse 30A eng. box..

Yes they are good.


Main Relay eng. box G/R power from fuel inj fuse, B/W from eng. fuse key on, Black ground by pass. headlamp, W/L to fuel pump relay..

I checked these today and all show continuity between Main relay connection and points the wire connect to.


Have you jumped the F/P and the Grd. in the dia. box key on should start fuel pump.

Yes and so far nothing. This was after I found the ugly Main fuse but after jumping FP (third from left on lower bar of Diagnostic connection) to ground (5th on lower) I heard no pump noise.


Coils ground with lug to engine by throttle body a black wire from each coil..

That double wire on single eyelet near throttle body is solidly connected and clean


Power to coils B/W from key on..

I didn't check this yet


There are 2 connectors by inside blower location that look the same and are interchangeable..

Any chance you can elaborate on this part? I don't understand where or what to check.


Check black wires at fuel pump connector on tank for a good ground to frame

I still need to check this also.

[jon]

Good work diagnosing! Hopefully that relay does the trick. Sometimes disturbing these rusty old things taking the apart damages them...

[gwnwar]

The 2 connectors are around were the inside blower motor was. larger connectors multi wires look the same Total 4 pieces they will interchange so connecting to each other is possible.. ECU Pin 1B get power from Main Relay you checked with OMH meter so run is good must be the main relay..
If you jump the G/R and W/R at the main relay with key on do you have power to ECU pin B1.. That should also power the fuel pump relay W/L wire. With power to fuel pump relay if you then jump the FP and Grd in Dia. box pump should turn on if wire to pump and a good ground is at pump.. Isn't wiring fun.. It will end up being something simple in the end.. You will know your car better

[zeitgeist]

Update. I went to get new Main relay ordered yesterday and they don't have it at warehouse. I searched and couldn't find any new other than online or days wait for order so went to scrap yard and got one from a NB. It also shows no continuity across any poles and plugged in does nothing different from the old rusty relay.

Frustrated I pulled the old relay cover and wedged a screwdriver to force the contact closed. I got a humming sound but not from the fuel tank pump but up near the engine. I tried starting with no luck. I checked for spark and no luck. I hooked up the code reader and it DID connect this time but showed no trouble codes.

I then jumpered the FP and ground in dig box and the fuel pump started humming. I tried starting with no luck but let it run some to help prime the new fuel line for later and check for leaks. No leaks. I then gave it all a rest and then wedged the relay closed again where I checked the white/red wire at the ECU and was now getting 12.96 volts.

I'm getting to a point I don't know where to check next and don't want to leave the relay forced closed for very long for safety. No leaks and nothing seems to be getting warm but it can't be good.

[mawdo81]

Is the relay getting power to the activation side? And good ground? Can you borrow a good relay from a known running car?

[zeitgeist]

Apr 26, 2016 18:43:10 GMT mawdo81 said:

Is the relay getting power to the activation side? And good ground? Can you borrow a good relay from a known running car?

I'm not sure how to exactly check that as the service manual diagram of connector is tough to decipher which way the connection is oriented. When I force the relay connection closed with the cover off and a screwdriver pushing the contacts closed it seems to work and power the ECU, NOW FUEL PUMP and other items including connecting so that a code reader can connect and show no trouble codes.

[mawdo81]

So either it's 2 dodgy relays or the supply or ground to the relay isn't right. Many relays have a schematic on them, or you might be able to work it out if you have the cover off. Failing either of those a Google search on the relay should help you find the spec.

Sorry I can't help more, my Sonic is focus based!

[zeitgeist]

I checked a few more things such as crank angle sensor. The gry/red wire from it to the ECU gry/red has continuity so does the wht/red from CAS to ECU. The Blk/blu wire from CAS to MAF,Cam angle sensor,ECU and Main relay terminal all have continuity.

I checked the coil and both connections 1c and 2c have continuity to ground. the Blk/wht wire has continuity coil to coil, coil 1 and coil 2 to front O2 sensor blk/wht wire. The brown and brow/yel wires from each coil to ECU connections 3h and 3g with same color wires also have continuity.

However I still have no dash display at all ( No odometer, no gauges, no lights etc) and I don't have any spark.

I seem to be getting no power to coils on connections 1a and 2a coil connections. Below are the readings and circumstance when the readings were taken

Key on no relay manipulation 2a and 1a have .66 volts
Key on relay pushed closed 2a and 1a .2 volts
Key cranking,relay closed 4 volts on both 1a and 2a
Key off 0 power to both 1a and 2a

[gwnwar]

If you are getting power to all items after screwdriver to relay then the coil part of the relay is not working to close the contacts..
Do you have 12v at ign sw. R/B wire with key on? this feeds the engine 15a fuse. power there??
Check at the underside of the fuse box not just across the top of fuse..

The wire off other side of eng. fuse is B/W this feeds power to main relay coil. Do you have 12v at B/W key on??
If no power.. This B/W goes through a connector by eng fuse box.. connecting front and engine harness.. long connector with @ 20 wires..
Ground to main relay is Black is it grounded to frame/engine??

Have checked yet the front to instrument panel connector (20>22 wires in 4 rows) AND front to to rear connector (15>19 wires 4 rows) and front to emissions @ 11wires 4 rows these will fit into each other.. Just check if same color wires are on both sides of connectors..

Check for any folded over pins in connectors or popped out wire at connectors..

[zeitgeist]

I continued to check other items even though no power to the coils seems like the real issue.


I checked the coils for resistance per service manual. Passenger coil pack has 9.98 ohms and drivers side(Left side) has 9.86 ohms. Both are within specs.

I then checked each plug wires resistance. wires are all good at 3.89 for 1, 2.95 for wire 2, 2.28 for wire 3 and 2.11 for wire 4.

Now I need to determine the path of power from coils to wherever they get their power from a relay? ECU? the heavens above? I'm going blind looking at the wiring diagram and tracing the wire paths.

[zeitgeist]

The parts store called and they have a new relay in. I just picked it up so I will install it and go from there. If nothing I will go through the suggestions and comment on the results.

[gwnwar]

Have you checked yet if you have 12v at both coils B/W wires key on?? This also gets its power from the Engine fuse15A and goes through connector X16..
Do you have 12V B/W wire at main relay???
Have you checked the main relay? With OHM meter 2 of the pins will show 0.00 on meter when jumped.. other 2 will not..
Put power 12v to one of the 2 pins (were B/W goes) that did show 0.00 OHMS and ground the other that showed 0.00
With this done you should show 0.00 OHMS across the 2 pins that didn't show 0.00 in the beginning..

[zeitgeist]

Apr 26, 2016 20:01:56 GMT gwnwar said:

If you are getting power to all items after screwdriver to relay then the coil part of the relay is not working to close the contacts..
Do you have 12v at ign sw. R/B wire with key on?


Yes 12V here

this feeds the engine 15a fuse. power there??


No power here


Check at the underside of the fuse box not just across the top of fuse..

No power at top of fuse with fuse in or at connections with fuse out.




The wire off other side of eng. fuse is B/W this feeds power to main relay coil. Do you have 12v at B/W key on??

No power with key on at small black wire with white stripe at main underhood fuse and relay block.



If no power.. This B/W goes through a connector by eng fuse box.. connecting front and engine harness.. long connector with @ 20 wires..
Ground to main relay is Black is it grounded to frame/engine??

Have checked yet the front to instrument panel connector (20>22 wires in 4 rows) AND front to to rear connector (15>19 wires 4 rows) and front to emissions @ 11wires 4 rows these will fit into each other.. Just check if same color wires are on both sides of connectors..

Check for any folded over pins in connectors or popped out wire at connectors..

See answers above and I am uploading pictures of the multiple pin connectors and all but 1 ground connection.