650 or not?

[roger32849]

Wow.... now we have a discussion going, albeit, not necessarily in the direction of the thread topic. It is my intention in this reply to stick to the straight and narrow.

Kevin, without holding you to any engineering plans on your idea to add a 650 to a trike, would you be willing to elaborate a little about the general direction you might be heading on the project. Right away, the 650 will be quicker off the line, more power, but not really faster than the 400, but capable of getting there in short time. Are you looking to go wider, longer, 2 seater? Perhaps an enclosed chassis? Toss us a bone on what's filling your thoughts on the subject.

Dave, not sure where you are coming from, but thank you for your comments, and observations on the forum. I have encouraged you to write your opinions and thoughts, but there is a lot of what you put down that I do not understand, and/or agree with. I do respect what you say, but also respect my right to disagree with you or ignore what I would consider inappropriate. You are always welcome to post what you want, especially about the 650. Again, I invite you to jump in to make a purchase. However, waiting for a 650 Eco-Exo might take a year or two and if you bought the 400, you will be amazed at its ability to perform. Everybody that has a 400 is on the same page on this, so I am sure you be delighted with it at the end of your build. Now then... I would honestly like to hear what you would like the 650 to be. Can you give details, maybe a mental rendering of some sort. Your idea on how to use one, sounds really fun. You have to remember, I am from Washington myself and I know the Cascades very well, a bunkhouse camper would be an ideal choice for towing. There are larger (and smaller) campers out there and a 650 might be stressed a bit especially in the mountains on the larger units.

If I were to look at adding a larger engine, I might consider a 600 Silverwing donor and see what that would do. After all there is only a 50 cc difference in size. The Silverwing is not complicated and the engine just might fit in the 400 chassis with a couple of mounting points added in. If looking at a redesigned chassis regardless of engine, then I would opt for a two up model, passenger behind operator. I would keep the Eco-Exo-R appearance, but dress it up with a stylish nose and wider rear engine support and tank cover. If riding solo the rear compartment could haul luggage for a cross country. I am currently building a single wheel trailer to do double duty behind my 2004 Suzuki Burgman 400 as well as my Eco-Exo-R. It isn't a camper, but will haul it all as far as a tent, sleeping bags and gear goes. I mountain ride here in Massachusetts. Between Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine, we have a lifetime of endless roads and scenic view points. I could see me buying a 650 model... but keeping my 400.

Roger,
Worcester, Massachusetts

[davej98002]

I am really thinking that Kelvin is looking at all options and business directions before proceeding. I also do not think he should throw the Eco-Exo 400 kit in the rubbish bin! But if he can add a third model, there will be a market for it, I am sure.

I am on here as I do like the Eco-Exo 400 but would not be happy for very long. But a tR1ke is too much for my needs. I do not want or need to fight over a trike topic. If I become abrasive, I am sorry but please let me know by PM or contact a moderator to have me notified I am out of line.

I will try to give my thoughts on Kelvin's updated plans for a 650 model. There is not much about the Burgman 650 that I do not know about and I know where to go for answers. He also has alot of Burgman 650 riders in England that can give input. The BurgmanUSA web site is not just for USA members, our lead Administrator is NormanB from England. I am very sure that if asked any Burgman 650 owner would throw the keys to any member for a test ride and I'd bet $1 you'd come back with the "Burgman Grin".

I added some info on page 2 about Mount Washington, New Hampshire.

[roger32849]

I've been up on Mt Washington numerous times. The road is paved except the last 3/4 mile. I can vouch for your statement, compression braking is important and mandatory. My rear brake caliper seized coming down. I boiled the brake fluid out of the caliper, melted my saddle bag, lost all but front wheel braking on my Kawasaki Voyager 1200. The ride down was not fun. I will bear the ECVT in mind if I go the Burgman 650 route I am sort of on the fence.

I may consider upgrading to a 600 Silverwing or the 650 Burgman for long rides. I have a Victory Cross Country Tour being fitted out with a Lehman Trike kit. I will be going cross country again this summer. Destination: Washington State and points south.

Dave I read your post, I have a few questions about the 650 Burgman. Do you know what the rated Horsepower and torque are? Just curious. I know there is a huge difference acceleration but what about top end. I notice when I hit 75 MPH indicated on the 400, it really shows its limitations as far as handling goes, How is the 650 at top speeds? Other than the power, what is the biggest advantage the 650 has over the 400 for you?

Here is how I view the 400. At 35 HP it is probably one of the strongest 400cc single cylinder engines out there. It is a work horse and the more you lug it down, the better it runs. In the scooter, it is an ideal country lane cruiser, not so much on the interstate, but capable of 65 MPH all day long. In the Eco-Exo-R, it is the same, a great back road cruiser and again 65 MPH all day long, not an interstate rider. It is capable of keeping up, but when I took it on a 125 mile interstate ride, the big rigs looked at me like I was a bug on their bumper. So, in the spirit of self preservation, my interstate riding is limited to short hops. The Eco-Exo-R is like a motorcycle in one respect... there is no such thing as a minor collision, or a bumper thumper, you get hit, it's gonna hurt.

Since we are all sort of spit balling the idea of a 650 ECO-EXO, here is what I would like to see as a basic entry: Naturally it will be the manual shift, keeping all the characteristics of the 400 but given a face lift in over size and interior room. I believe more ground clearance would be a plus, along with adjustable caster and camber. I would be in favor of a pre-made electrical connector to extend the OEM harness to fit the trike. Bearing in mind, the 650 Burgman will not run without OEM clocks, so a stylized integrated instrument mounting system would be another plus. To end my short list, take a look at Edward's front fenders. They emulate, the MEV vehicle lineup design. Finally, offer a few options, stereo, seating choices, and maybe a good deal on an extra wheel, brake and axle assembly.

So, whether to 650 or not seems a moot point Kevin, Make it!!!! And I'll take it. Well at least seriously think about it.

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[davej98002]

On the power of the 650, it has 54 Horsepower. It is a parallel twin with fuel injection. I can be cruising at 75 MPH and gun it and it will jump to 90 MPH very fast. From 90 to my top speed of 115 MPH, it is a bit slower. But to me it feels just as comfortable at 100 MPH as 70 MPH. A day long cruise at 85 MPH is as easy as a 55 MPH cruise, the 650 does not care. I have done a couple of 1 day 1100 mile burns and was not all beat to He11.

You just keep it in auto mode and it is seamless all the way to its top end, no shifting "Jurk". The power button will help down low but after 50 MPH its useless except for a bit more engine braking where needed. I have played with the manual mode for a week and again, 90% of the time Auto mode works best. Where manual mode works well is in steady-state cruising where I can lock it in 6th (OD) and the RPM will stay steady at 4000 RPM at 70 MPH up and down small hills. The only time I have had problems locked in OD was on a 12% grade and the bike slowed down so I just popped it back in Auto mode. Auto mode, the RPM will swing about a bit depending on throttle input and terrain. It will go into the OD range but just a little throttle and the RPM's will climb a bit. Same with hitting a hill in auto, the RPM's climb some too.

In my 41 mile one way commute at 65 to 70 MPH I get a corrected MPG of 54 MPG. Some of the newer ones get in the 60 MPG range.

I am running a huge, and it is HUGE, 185/60 HR 14 CAR tire on the rear. It is 1.2 inches taller than the factory 160/60 HR 14. Because it is taller I get 48.6 less revolutions per MILE. The Burgmans, yes even the 400's, have about a 10% error in the speedo's. When you are doing 65 MPH on the speedo, in true life (and GPS) you're doing 59 to 60 MPH. My taller tire makes my speedo almost exactly on.

The 07 up 400's like Rogers can run a 150/60 13 CAR tire on the rear. They cost about $35 to $70 and last 20,000 miles, sometimes much more. The 650's can run a 165/60 14, 165/65 14, 155,65 14 and the not recommended 185/60 14. I do not recommend the 185/60 14 due to needing to grind down the casting seam in the swingarm for the tire to not rub. But if you do that mod it fits nicely. I have a hard time spinning my rear tire even in the rain. And yes I can still corner with the sport bikes.

Stay away from the 02-04 Burgman 650's. They had a badly designed CVT input shaft adapter and they "Rattle" like a old VW Rabbit Diesel. There is a Polish made adapter on E-Bay for $250ish that slides in the factorys place that fixes that. The 02-04's also only have a 5 speed manual without a OD.

The engine is frame mounted forward between both feet in bike form, with the CVT behind that, then the wet clutch connects to the "GEAR DRIVE" swingarm. The swingarm has 5 counter rotating gears with the speedo pickup mounted over #4 gear. Being a swingarm with gears, a reverse gear can not be mounted there. But a drop down "Rub on the tire" reverser motor would work if you need reverse. Gas tank, 4 US gallons, is under the 40 liter trunk that is under the seat so that fuel is mounted very low in the frame too.

Kelvin has a doner 650 and I have a 03 650 sitting on my garage floor. I can take pictures and measurements if needed. Plus there is always an engine "Module" on EBay to look at. You can get a wrecked Burgman 650 from many auction sites like Copart.com in  USA/Canada/UK. Common Breaker yards are $$$. A clean title is easier to get registered than a "Salvage" title.

The bad news. There have been a higher rate of ECVT failures over the years. There have been 10's of thousands of Burgman 650's made. We have no stat's on that number. But we have had about 100 reported CVT's that failed. If it fails it requires a engine drop to get the CVT out and then it costs $$$$ to replace. The drive belt is kelvlar/rubber/alumumn and was designed to last the "LIFE" of the bike but if one fails the cost of repairing is the "End of Life" for most. Bearings are the most common failure, belt failure is second followed by a simple $5 "Stopper" bolt is third. Suzuki put the worlds most crappy and cheap bearing in these bikes. That is why the bearing failure is #1. The belt failures have happened as low as 26,000 miles and a few at 100,000 miles. There is no know way to make sure yours will go 100K or 26K miles.

Yes you will need to use the Burgman 650s dash in your build up. It talks to the ECM. But it is a digital readout and is thin so mounting in a dash panel should be easy. You can change the bulbs inside to different color LED's too.

I have spent some time typing these common items about the Burgman 650. There is more on the web. Italy has a Burgman club, they will not allow us to join. There is BurgmanUSA.com and BurgmanRiders.com

[roger32849]

Dave

That was a very informative post about the 650 Burgman. I know the 650 is a much more sophisticated machine than the 400, but it sounds like it comes at a high price...." longevity and reliability. I have replaced belts on my 400, it is about 2 hours to do and back on the road, of course if you decide to check the clutch and variator, it takes a bit longer. When a 650 belt breaks, what happens?? Does it take out the transmission, or break the castings in the housing, or is a belt some ridiculously sinful amount of money to buy? For now, since it is the middle of winter, I will keep my 400 and give it more thought as we get closer to spring and summer. Today, a blizzard will hit and dump 2 feet of snow in my driveway. I am a bit more focused on that right now.

Thanks Dave, good information, I enjoyed reading it. If anybody else has any information, perhaps a horror story about the belts on a 650, it would be an informative entry to make.

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[roger32849]

Kelvin:

I just noticed I have been writing Kevin instead of Kelvin. I sincerely apologize, no disrespect intended. I will, in the future, get it right...

Roger

[davej98002]

The belt costs about $300 and there are not any aftermarket ones, unlike for the 400 where you can get about 4 different ones at 4 different prices. The two known things to break a belt is high mileage and bearing failure. Most times when the belt breaks the bike will not show any symptoms before and then the bike just stops going forwards but the engine still revs. But sometimes the bearings start to fail and allows the pulleys to get sloppy and that causes wear (Fretting) of the shafts and misalignment. That does have a symptom before hand, a squeal, and if caught in time is just maybe $200 in parts plus $300 for a new belt since it is apart might as well be proactive. On a trike you would make the frame so it could be out of the way of dropping the CVT out the right side. As Suzuki made it, you must remove most of the tupperware (nickname for the ABS plastic body), a lot of wiring and the throttle bodies so you can drop the engine eather down in the rear or totally out. SO STUPID on Suzukis part!!! We have a sticky over on the BurgmanUSA's 650 page on CVT failures and it is long. But we also had a bunch of 400 owners bashing or filling up the threads with BS just to make the 400 seem worth more in resale value. "Why buy a 650 only to have it fail. A 400 will ..." They were ask to stop by the ADMIN.
Here is one on CVT problems: burgmanusa.com/forums/15-burgman-650/39396-cvt-problem-maybe.html
And another on Primary Spline failures: burgmanusa.com/forums/15-burgman-650/33629-primary-spline-failures.html
One thing to understand, IF it happens to you its a big thing but most of us long time riders have had little to no problems. I am expecting mine to start making noise as I am over the 50K mile mark (64.5K miles) but guess what? I am still riding and am planning a 2000 mile road trip in the later summer time up into Canada for 7-10 days.

The other thing different is on a 400 you can use just about any motor oil, 5w30/10w30/5w20/... But the 650 has a wet clutch that shares the SAME oil sump with the engine. So you can not run any oil that says "Energy Conserving" on the bottles "Starburst" No XXw30. Almost all XXw40 oils may be ok but if it is not rated JASO MA I would be hesitant in putting it in my bike. I and many others run Shell Rotella T6 5W40 full synthetic or T5 15W40.

Also these 650 have a high compression ratio but only require regular pump gas. By putting super in most have found it has a bit less power and no gas mileage inprovement, just a higher cost per mile. the old YMMV is true.

The 650 has a 8500 RPM rev limit and will "Stutter" the engine if you go that high in manual mode. So just upshift before or at the stutter and you can not hurt it. I was told a member was in 5th gear and down shifted to 2nd and blew it up but he would not prove it and was a newer poster with like 4 total posts.

ADDED 3 hours later:
I want everyone that is thinking about a 650 Burgman for power to unsrestant up front, this is not a perfect engine. It has design flaws that some of us do not understand why Ma Suzuki let leave the factory. But out of the 12 bikes I have owned and dozens more that I have ridden, this is the best so far as far as maintenance, ease of riding for miles, noise, and over all costs. Get a low mileage unit, do some routine maintenance on it and "TWIST and GRIN" .

[roger32849]

Dave: Given what you know about the Suzuki Burgman 650 and the Honda Silverwing 600, is there a real advantage to installing a Burgman 650 engine in the Eco-Exo over a Silverwing 600 engine? I am aware of some of the issues concerning the secondary drive system, but not the overall problem spectrum the Burgman 650 experiences. As long as there is a choice, of which to use, one might look at Honda. To be honest, I do not know the 1st thing about the Silverwing, except Honda sells a lot of them and they seem less complicated and therefore possibly less prone to catastrophic failure.... a broken belt is just a broken belt.

Kelvin: (got the name right this time) In keeping with the theme of this thread, the 650 Burgman donor will make a great addition given the secondary drive holds out. I scoured the local Craigslist and eBay in search of possible donors. Naturally there were listings, but the lowest priced one was $3900.00 USD. A donor at this price point puts a US delivered price tag around $9500.00 for kit and donor. Naturally there are the details not included in the kit such as the seat, steering wheel paint, welding and other modifications necessary for completion. The final finished price tag could hit $12,000.00 to $13,000.00. I am sure one for less could be built but in what sort of condition? Let us know how the project develops once you start with a projected price point you are focusing on.

Do you have any plans to do a face lift to the current 400 models? I am speaking of the bonnet primarily. It would be great to get rid of the cavity that facilitates the basic model handlebars when delivering an Eco-Exo-R. The cavity could be replaced by another to mount the clocks. Any thoughts??

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[davej98002]

Roger, the Silverwing is more like the 400 in its CVT, just a rubber band belt. It is a twin cylinder so it will scoot. I have never gotten into one to see its engineering but I have heard some good and little bad about them. They do not have much IF any engine braking force and are not computer controlled so you are relying on the vairator to do that work.

For me I would find a low mileage Burgman 650 over the Silverwing or a Yamaha T-Max (XP500). Just my opinion.
Maybe a newer BMW 600/650 scooter. ($$$)
But the Aprilia Mana 850 is also a CVT big BIKE but to service it you MUST take it to an authorized Apirila shop that has the Aprilia scan tool when you change the belt or the computer puts it in "WET" mode at 1/3 of its power output.
Or a Honda CTX700 DCT with its 670cc Dual Clutch automatic. VFR1200F DCT???

From my choices above you can see I hate shifting. I can not pull a clutch lever too much in rush hour traffic.

For any Donor bikes look at Copart.com for one. The prices do get high at times as sometimes a wrecked US titled bike can be shipped overseas, rebuilt and sold with a clean "Washed" title as "Never been wrecked". With Copart you must pay a $25 membership fee and then the winning bidder pays a few fees that do add up quite high at times. I bought a wrecked 2008 for $625 USD and the out the door price with Washington state sales tax was $910 USD. Copart is in USA, Canada and UK.
On Copart.com search for AN650 and ignore the K3 as they think all Burgmans are 2003's. Think I'd stay away form the Exec model too as the ABS would be too hard to incorparate into the front two wheels, unless you sensor'ed only 1 of the fronts then it would work I think.

I put 19,000 miles on that Burgman and wrecked it again, and me too. Broke a total of 6 bones in my right side, damaged my kidney and liver too. I am still recovering 4 years later.

[roger32849]

My 400 Burgman donor was an Oregon salvage title from Copart, it took an act of Congress to get it through the the Massachusetts inspection system. Never again for a rebuild or a donor..... ever!!!!!! Some states are easy or easier on salvage titles, Massachusetts will NOT accept New York salvage titles that are not accompanied by a list of paperwork that Copart DOES NOT PROVIDE. You could wind up buying $1000.00 Garage Queen or lawn ornament.

Sorry to hear you went down... High side or Low? Which ever it was, it was bad carma to crash on a bike that was salvaged for a crash earlier in its life.

I have a very nice AN400 in my garage. It is a 2004 with about 12,000 miles. I replaced the bearings in the rear hub. They were pretty flat and howling. The only other things I had to do was the headlight bulbs (35 watt units) and a speedometer sensor repair. Tires are a given. I will do the valve adjustment this spring and check brake pads and fluids. Tires are new so it should be okay to go. I am not going to be jumping into a 650 anyway soon. I like the 400 for what it is, and I have the Victory for long rides. It would be interesting to test ride a 650 just for S's & G's.

The 650 as a donor for a newly designed trike is going to be an expensive way to buy the harvestable parts. If you buy one for that purpose, the 54 horsepower engine should be strapped to a sporty chassis worthy of the price of the donor. There is much that can be removed to do the build, but the most important here in Massachusetts is the paperwork. Not just most of it, ALL... REPEAT ALL of it is necessary before Willie Wanker gives you the Golden ticket and makes it street legal.

The real task Kelvin has is not the build of the 650 prototype, but to do a cost effective working platform to base future builds from. It is mostly about Pounds and Pence and Dollars and cents. I would really like to do another 400 build, but with some changes made to the kit so it would accept a newer donor before I would order. It gets rather difficult engineering as you build.... it is an old concept, but not the preferred one. I will see how Kelvin offers the 400, any changes, mods, or upgrades would be interesting to see.

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[iank]

While it would mean a clutch and shifter I think something like an SV650 v-twin or if room for an inline-4 something like a zx6r would be ideal at least as an option. Much cheaper to buy the donor and probably more attractive to the average (if such a thing exists) kit-car builder. IMO it would put it bang in between a tr1ke and 400cc eco-exo.

Any idea if the RS will be ready for a debut (even if only a teaser) for Stoneleigh?

[qdos]

Hi guys, sorry I'm a bit busy with a shed load of things at the moment and will post something a bit more about what I'm looking at doing perhaps later in the week, maybe next week.

I like to hear folks ideas and I am listening to you all. I happened to just have a bit of a lucky opportunity with a 650 Burgman being available to me that was too good an opportunity to let pass. I agree that Burgmans are not cheap and that there are other machines out there that are more readily available at lower prices. I am interested in these too but I don't have bottomless pockets.

In addition to sorting out the workshop to facilitate continuing the manufacture of the Eco-Exo range I'm also looking at the prototype development that I also took on board from Scott. It's a rather handy coincidence that the 650 cropped up so I'm going to use this to incorporate into the development of the prototype. I want it to be a different machine to the existing range and I want it to compliment that range too i.e. be another model. I'm also interested in using other bikes and one brand that has been mentioned several times already that I am interested in is Honda so I will be looking out for these too. Don't hold your breath though as I've got plenty to be getting on with already.

As a brief outline I'm looking at a bit more aggressive styling and maybe some more bodywork too to perhaps give a bit more protection from the elements when driving the prototype. With regards when it is likely to be ready to show anyone that is a very good question that I can only honestly reply with "I don't know" but it's unlikely to be Stoneleigh as that's very near in terms of time available but I will let you guys know first as to what I think I'm happy to let be seen outside of the workshop. I will not however be making something that's in the tr1Ke arena I feel that the Eco-Exo sits nicely in the more relaxed niche that could be said to be similar to the Burgman and Silverwing with regards bikes.

Hope you'll bear with me and thanks for your inputs and interest
Kelvin with and L

[erik]

Euhm... We don't have many Hondas here and the 650s are extremely expensive. We can buy 2 R1 for 1 An650:
www.marktplaats.nl/z.html?query=burgman650&postcode=5342

We do have way too many Suzukis and Ducatis over here.
Took me quite some time to find some good pics of a Monster. very similar to what I had and batterie and airbox layout is identical. The pics show the airbox has multifunction which should make the unit a drop in fit into an Exo chasis. Mind you, from 1992 to date 290.000 units have left the factory on the Monster alone. The early versions showed to be impossible to sell like my 900SSie. Note the Monster has a cantilever construction, the 900ss is only a shock fixed behind the rear cilinder head:
chickenshackducatiproject.blogspot.nl/2009_11_01_archive.html
The biggest pro of this engine is the speed range isn't track orientated thus much user friendly as high top end speed engines like R1 or Hayabusa. changing sprocket ratio to 100mph should show reasonable rpm at cruising speed unlike 4 cilinders. Note the easy fixing point on the engine and exhaust. They are near in line! ( I think the if the rear tube on the Exo is lowered and extended all brackets needed could be welded on it, it'll even create license plate fixing location and rear lights... A very cheap way to engeneer and produce the rear end). btwm The Ducati chasis are much narrower as the Exo so it'll fit for sure.

The tR1ke is not an Exo, but if you tweak her it'll very competitive to a Rayvolution. Personally I find the Exo chasis much more convenient in a small garage vs the tR1ke. Because the majority have small garages over here it makes sense to make a single or tandem seater.

I haven't driven my Exo a lot but at 50mph I didn't have any buffeting, winds on my hands, body,arms,face,eyes. The tR1ke is totally inverted on and is very hooligan on this. However, Personally I think it's not the wind to cope with but dust and rain will make quite a mess in this exoskelleton concept.covering with grp would be a shame tough. There are other alternatives worth reconsidering. GRP won't last forever.

The Exo should remain a low entry kitcar IMO.

br,
Erik

[roger32849]

In reading the posts, I am putting my opinion in the melting pot concerning the power choices and donor bike selection for the prototype "up-scaled" Eco-Exo. First of all, the current chassis for the 400cc Burgman engine might hold the 600/650 from Honda/Suzuki. I am sure it would Launch down the road like it was rocket powered. I don't think I would want to be the driver unless some redesigning was done to make the handling more stable. On the flat surface the 400 powered Eco-Exo-R will easily hit 75 MPH, but enter a small frost heave and that 75 MPH speed will likely cause a few anxious moments trying to recover hitting it, or trying to avoid it. Either way, the 400 powerplant has little or nothing to do with it, just as adding another more powerful engine wouldn't be a problem. At 75 MPH the Eco-Exo-R is a little sensitive to steer regardless of power. I have not tested nor seen in person the Tr1ke, but with an R1 engine it is understood it will scream. It probably handles well at high speeds too. The desire to build a larger more powerful version of the Eco-Exo should naturally incorporate a redesigned chassis and suspension to handle sustained speeds in excess of normal country land cruising.


Keeping it simple, economical, and designed to handle higher speeds should be some focal points to bear in mind. When I ride my Eco-Exo-R I find it is just right for me. Plenty of power and it handles well at the speeds I choose to drive at. I agree with Kelvin (with an L) about bottomless pockets. There are thousands of 400 and 650 Burgman scooters out there of the 2 the 400 fits my pocket depth. The 600 Silverwing might also be a little deep.

There, I hope to see some more information coming from the chair of the executive committee at Eco-Exo HQ.?

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[davej98002]

Even if Kelvin were to start working on a new model, the prototype would still be months in the making, then testing, refinements, more testing and then tooling up for production. Even if one were to take a current 400 chassis and cut/bend/weld in new mounts for another engine setup, your looking at months before a prototype would be ready for testing. Take your time sir and do it right. Some may wait, others will move on, nothing you can control directly.