650 or not?

[qdos]

OK the thoughts behind the 650 are pretty much as follows:-

As people have pointed out the 650 has been a potential donor for a while though I don't know if one has been built using it. Given this has been out there for a few years now I am loathed to be the one who is pointed at as being who killed this option off. I do however think that the 400 is more than adequate as a suitable donor. You all also know that there's an evolution of the Eco-Exo in prototype,the RT, it is certainly recognisable as being an Eco-Exo but there's little point if producing a new model if it's just a minor tweak in the detail of an existing machine. I quite liked what Scott had done but I want to give it a bit more to differentiate it from the existing models. I don't see the point in producing a model that competes with itself, I also don't intend to compete with the TR1Ke, I aim to produce something that fits btween the two vehicles.

I am very interested in peoples opinions on the Eco-Exo and I value everyone's input, inevitably though I am not going to take every opinion on and build a machine that's built by committee, it's got to have some flair and personality I do hope that you'll all like where I wind up with this new trike and if I'm lucky perhaps you'll like it enough to buy another Eco-Exo model off me. I've got quite a job on my hands now but that's no bad thing and will mean I'm going to be all the more pleased when I get the RT done.

I'm unfortunately going to have to disappoint for the moment and say that for now there's no pics, though I may pop a few up of generic kinds of components and who knows there might be a hint here and there of what's to come. I don't however want to post up some fantastic image and not achieve it as we will all be let down by that, no one more so than me.

So keep on letting us hear of your ideas and thoughts, it's great to have them and I for one do appreciate them. I hope you'll all appreciate my efforts too and when I am happy to let you guys know of things I've done you'll be the first to know. :-)

[erik]

Hi Roger,
I guess you haven't read the intro Kelvin wrote earlier. He'll start to produce the kit in it's original form to start with. You'd rather see the Exo redesigned from ground zero well marketing wise that's a disaster scrapping the tooling and design...

The tR1ke is a different concept. Both concept have pros and cons depending on personal wishes. However, the achilles hiel of kitcars in general is the donor engine is always soon to be outdated and the young donors are expensive. Even more of a PITA is a design in general only lasts for 5years max! Therefore the Exo needs to be upgraded or redesigned in future anyway. However, because the Exo design isn't known in large comunities I think the original version will still be worth living for quite a while but the donor parts are not. Upgrading the engine isn't prio#1. Not sure if it's the best route for this moment regardless of the very few wanting a bigger engine. personally I'd consider a different approach if I had to build an other one but I am not a kitcar manufacturor trying to make a living but for a hobby I do have plenty of time to tweak my thoughts. Needles to say this could be usefull if it was for grabs .

[edvb]

Well, I wish you luck Kevin on the 650 build.

After 1.5 years building mine and taking everything in account including cost I am pretty happy where I am now.
I liked it so much I decided to build a custom ground loading trailer to store it.

It seems like going to change an existing chassis to a larger and stronger one to accept the 650 will at the end come at an increased cost. In the states by the time you get done you most likely can get a used Slingshot for the same cost and have all the features you would want without the hassle of getting it licensed.

I like the size of what I have now for myself but depending on what you do to the frame to have a great handling 650 trike will take some time and engineering to produce.

I have shown all the little problems and gripes can be solved and Roger has all the data to be able to fit a later year engine.

What has happened since you took over? Has any changed been made to the original? If someone orders one today will still be exactly the same as what Scott produced?

Just kind of wondering where you stand as of today.

Edward

[qdos]

Don't worry guys the original trikes will be available for sure. What I'm intending on doing is add a new model to the range.

[davej98002]

Jan 23, 2015 8:13:56 GMT qdos said:

Don't worry guys the original trikes will be available for sure. What I'm intending on doing is add a new model to the range.

Thank you!!! To some bigger is good, to others an insult. To me, Beluga caviar is very expensive and tastes just like fish egg bait I have used. In other words, we are not all the same and do not try to make me YOU.

[mawdo81]

Lol made laugh that some one on a kit car forum has posted that "we are not all the same"!

[edvb]

Yes, and heaven knows where the "Insult" comes from.

My words come from someone that has built a Licensed Eco Exo R and has found a few shortcoming along with Roger.

If someone is contemplating a kit in the near future it would be nice to at least see a sketch of the proposed RS model to see if that would fit better before getting the 650 done. I am not against the 650 at all and it would be great to add it to the stable.

My comment was for the people in the States as by the time shipping costs are included with the new models it just might price themselves out of what will be available here.

It would be a shame for Kevin to develop one and having no buyers because of the cost. I hope not.

The other comments I made were to address the current kits. I would hate to buy a kit and find out in the near future the new RS model was a better fit overall.

I guess Kelvin, I think all of us would just like a rough sketch of the RS to get an idea what might be worth waiting for.

Edward

[roger32849]

There is a tremendous amount of Flux surrounding the 650 idea. As for me I find the 650 concept very appealing, but let's be realistic for a moment. As you mentioned, you do not want to become your own competitor. I have to ask, is it practical to do a prototype design of something potentially bigger, faster, more powerful, with an increased capacity, and expect your original model, yet unchanged, to have a market unaffected by an improved product that is still on the drawing board? "Yes, I know it's a mouth full" I am not a marketing expert, but developing a new product while the mainstay of the Eco-Exo is becoming obsolete might stimulate sales for the new product (idea), but wouldn't it sort of bury the Eco-Exo-R? My comments are because you have a great little trike in the Eco-Exo-R. It needs updating to accept the 2007 and newer donor parts. The engineering has been done, the bugs worked out, it drives great, has power to spare and is the most economical fun a person can have on wheels.

If you developed the 650 and did no improvements on the current Eco-Exo-R and I had a choice of which one to buy, it would be easy, my choice would be the 650, but that decision is partly because I already have an Eco-Exo-R in my garage. HOWEVER, If you refined the Eco-Exo-R to accept the 2007 and newer donors, offered a stylish bonnet that could easily incorperate the windscreen and clocks, perhaps added a nicer designed air scoop and side covers, then I would have to say I had a "difficult choice"...

I have to echo what Edward said, we both make these comments not as outsiders looking in, but as successful builders and operators of the Eco-Exo-R trike. We both, really wish you the very best success in manufacturing and improving your product. Almost everything we write about in this forum could be titled "HOW WE DID IT" This includes Erik and his minimalist designed to Edward and his clean lined race car design. My personal challenge was to adapt the 2008 Burgman to the kit. All three of us gave detailed data, photos, videos, and diagrams of what we did to come up our respective designs. More importantly, we highlighted problem areas, and solved them. In response Scott took note but ultimately did not affect a change except to add the air scoop for better engine cooling.

It truly is your company Kevin, but somehow as builders and owners and active forum authors, Erik, Edward and myself feel like our input has value to new buyers and builders and to you, the new company CEO/Owner. Whether by design or default we in the field have done a significant amount Research and Development. You have a great knowledge pool here with at least three different design prototypes and instructional visual aids. This is in addition to the original information and superb design done by Mr Stuart Mills.

Plainly stated, we have done our part and given you valuable workable information concerning the Eco-Exo-R. We all hope you refine, improve, update, and keep the Eco-Exo-R project alive. It isn't until you get your hands dirty, your brain clicking and your tools greasy does the build give up its secrets of what to do to get her to come alive. If you have not built one of these, it is nearly impossible to offer plausible reliable engineering data. So, we the active builders on the forum are not just your customers we "ARE" your R&D team. We are partners by being owners of the neatest reverse trike on the road.

Kevin I sincerely wish you all the best in your endeavours to build the Eco-Exo Trike and manufacturing company into a successful venture. If we can assist you in any way, we are here.

Roger
Worcester Massachusetts

[roger32849]

Dave..
While I do not understand or agree with most of your entries, I respect the fact you take the time to be an active forum author. I sincerely encourage you to contact Exomotive in Atlanta Georgia to order an Eco-Exo-R kit. As I have said before, you might as well jump in with the buyer/builders on the forum. You will be glad you did.

I am still not sure what your last entry was all about... cavier, fishbait and insults.. I've read it half dozen times and I just don't get it. LOL

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[davej98002]

Jan 23, 2015 16:35:03 GMT davej98002 said:

Thank you!!! To some bigger is good, to others an insult. To me, Beluga caviar is very expensive and tastes just like fish egg bait I have used. In other words, we are not all the same and do not try to make me YOU.

I said:

1. To some bigger is good (most hotrodders) and to others an insult (Why do you NEED bigger? It is fine for me.) On the BurgmanUSA web site it offten comes up, "Why not a 900 - 1000cc Burgman with some Goldwing type luxury added on". The comments that follow are "Why do you want bigger?" Or "My 400 is fine and I don't need a 1000cc Scooter" Or "If you want bigger, might as well just get a Miata" Its like it insults them that I want something different than them.

2. Opulence. Beluga caviar is one of the best to those that have to have the best. But it is lost on me. In other words, we (you and I) are not the same, different tastes, different strokes. You like the 400 Exo-Eco and I want a 650 version. I will not try to convert you as I respect your choice.  In my ARMY career I was branded a Non-Conformist because I did not attend all the after hour functions unless I was required. I lived off post and hang up my ARMY hat at the end of day. On duty, I gave 100% and was a 100% professional soldier.

I want a Burgman 650 powered trike. I will be loading it with gear and towing a small pop-up tent trailer in mountains. We have tall mountains out here in the west. A two place seating would be a plus but 95% of the time not needed.

But if my input is not wanted or needed, I will move on. You guys don't pay me enough. You all ARE getting a check for your comments on here, right?  NO, hummmmm.

Any response to this part of the topic should be in PM. I'd like it back on track of the possibility of a 650 Trike.

[qdos]

Guys,relax please.

The title of this thread is "650 or not?" and consequently was an appropriate place to say that I'd had the opportunity arrive to obtain a 650 Burgman which would have been rather silly to have let pass. I have now got a 650 in the workshop and will be using it, as well as the 400 Burgman, to continue developing trikes.

The 400 is a superb donor for the Eco-Exo in both it's current configurations, those of us who have driven one all agree on this and I don't think anyone contends this opinion. This thread however is about the 650.

I want to grow the Eco-Exo brand and I'm delighted when I see people putting their own touches to their machines, it is to me one of the great things about kits that people can customise them to their particular likes. I too enjoy putting my ideas on vehicles and have been doing so since I was 17 years old when I built my first kit. I think they are an excellent basis for some mighty fine people to put their skills, imagination and flair to. I am open minded, I will always be interested in seeing this happen and want to do what I am able to assist in this.

I will be opening up the range of options with Eco-Exo kits in numerous directions, the current two variations of the trike are an excellent basis to be centred on. I've been seriously impressed with each of the vehicles I've seen both online and in the flesh. There are other ideas out there that I am very much aware of which I feel can also be tapped into using the Eco-Exo as a springboard.

I loved what Stuart did when he first built the original Eco-Exo I saw it long before it was in the public domain. Scott took it onboard and developed it further doing an great job of putting it into production. And I honestly think each of you guys who've built ones have made some superb examples that I'm proud to be a part of now too. I've got some ideas of my own and I will be putting them into action and very much hope you guys will bear with me and enjoy the ride through the chapters to come, big and small.

Kelvin

[erik]

Hi Dave,
If you plan on driving on mountains you'd be aware the CVT has no engine brake when I made a 200 metre 1st trip. When releasing throttle the belt spins freely. You need to beef up the front braking quite a bit which may end with a complete new front wheel construction, regenerative braking or anything else you fancy to prevent overheated brakes. I recon you may have to deal with a serious safety issue if not dealt with properly.

Kelvin,
The kit is fine as it is but the base needs some minor changes to make it even better. Having build the R makes me think the original chasis version may be even better for creative minds. I'd strongly suggest to start build up the rear and work towards the front to see the space you need for the engine, tank, seats, steering and little storing space or even a passenger. I think if the chasis was about 10" wider a passenger and engine would be very pleased but I think you need to extend the engine bay a bit. However, I did notice some scooter engines have airboxed placed on the left side of the rear wheel which may be very usefull.

Marketing wise I think you need to keep focussed on the concept of this kit: low priced,easy to pop out, easy to costumize,low level of loom modification. I think it could be possible to cut/extend the loom in one place which would be about 40 wires only and an 3 evenings soldering session. No other kit can compete with this. I had to relocate some hardware because of space restrictions of the steering column which the original verion has not

Nuf said... I'm here

[davej98002]

Thanks Erik. I have been riding a Burgman650, 3rd one now, for over 120,000 miles. I have 65,000 on my current 2008 650. The 2013 and up has less engine braking than the earlier ones. One of the first things you need to learn while riding a Burgman 650 is to lightly grab one of the brake levers to put the brake lights on when deceling in heavy traffic or the car behind you will not know you are slowing down and may crash into you, the engine braking is that good.

But another feature of the Burgman 650 that the 400 does not have is the "ECVT" and not a Vairator CVT. The computer controls the ECVT on the 650 and it has a "POWER" button and the "Manual Mode" paddle shifter. So if you do start down a steep hill you just push the power button and it puts the ECVT in a lower gear mode. The manual shift also allows you to put the bike in 6th for long runs or down shift for more power or lower gears for hills. I use the power button all the time in the twisty downhill runs and it works very well. The 02-04 650's have a 5 speed and the 05 up get a 6 speed with a bit taller OverDrive.

The belt on a 650 NEVER slips in normal use, if it does slip it is in big trouble. You do not change the belt every 20,000 miles like a 400's CVT. A broken ECVT on a 650 is very costly. The ECVT does have a higher failure rate. Please read more about the ECVT over on www.BurgmanUSA.com. We have a lot of info over there. But in the tens of thousands of Burgman 650's made, we have had about 100 reported failures, not too bad of odds.

ADDED 1/25/15. One of the roads in the State of New Hampshire is Mount Washington. Every year there are 1,000's of motorcyclists that meet up and ride to the top. It is a privately owned and has rules to enter. At 6,288 feet above sea level (1,917m) it has an average of 12 degrees with one section being 18 degrees. That is really steep and like Erik said above you better have good braking that includes engine braking. The owners rules include that NO scooters with automatic CVT transmissions are allowed, except the Burgman 650. The Burgman 650 has proven that with the manual mode ECVT we can use the engine to help slow for the downhill corners.

[erik]

Ahh, now I see why you're keen on a 650. Reading from your input it seems to be a better choice for hills. We have only few here so I'd be even happy with a smaller engine.

I haven't paid any attention to 650's at all. I have a Ducati 900SSie I am not able to sell so pretty much stuck on that one. Even for pocket change money (22000km,2900euro) but if I cannot sell it like Monsters, St2, St4 they are really build way too many, no one can which makes a great donor;) . The engine, loom, exhaust and swingarm layout feels to be a drop in unit for a trike. 3 trikes at home is a bit too much LOL!! Then my tR1ke needs a new owner. Building an Exo with aircooled engine may work well IMO but I'd bin the steering column to create engine clearance and keep the original controls.

I always wondered why the original Exo has pedal brake master cilinder and the original steering bar. Building into simplicity is an art IMO and the Exo is bred for it and I believe it could be even track worthy which would be quite a thrill.

[erik]

Btw, The master cilinder should be mounted vertical. Mine is near sideways which made it a PITA to make air free. Space restrictions under the bonnet shows this compromise.