Worcester Massachusetts Build

[davej98002]

A Nor'Easter will drop a lot of very wet snow and a lot of flat roofs will be at street level before its over. Take care.

Bet we could cobble up a snow plow for the Victory.

[qdos]

Jan 19, 2016 15:03:29 GMT roger32849 said:

If you read this Kelvin, do you have any complete Eco-Exo-R trike kits ready to ship? Before I start the riding season in April, I thought I would ask. I get a LOT of interest from guys (when I take my trike out for a ride) looking to buy "something". It would be good to know if there is an availability, or a wait.

That would be good but at the moment I've got to get some other vehicles out of my workshop and then Erik's is first for any attention but after that I'll be doing some prototype builds and tests so fabrication is being looked into at the moment whilst the workshop is like yours and too cold really for serious work at the moment. I'm waiting on temps to rise so that I can get some moulding work done.

Kelvin

[edvb]

Hi Kelvin

I am in the same boat as Roger. Spring will be here soon and I have inquires on getting kits but using a 2007-2015 Burgman donor. The 2003-2006 are getting harder to find and not all the parts are available.

Let us know if you will have kits available for 2016 and how many you plan to produce.

Edward

[qdos]

Hi Ed,

Just a quick reply but Yes I'll produce a kit for any serious customer that wants to place an order for an Eco Exo.

I'm also aware of the earlier Burgman being a bit hard to find suitable donors for so I'm interested in any preferences for specific donor bikes, as you know I have looked at the 650 also but that's a really big drive-train which isn't going to fit the Eco Exo as it stands.

[edvb]

Kelvin

I think the 2007-2015 Burgman 400 is the best choice for now and all future builds. I discussed this with Roger yesterday and to be able to use the wheels and brakes for the 2007-2015 Burgman will require to make the wheel hoops a little longer to fit the larger front wheels. Roger has it all figured out so just contact him for the details.

Edward

[roger32849]

No pressure here huh?.. In reality my build is an Eco-Exo Hybrid. It has 2003 - 2006 front brakes, front wheels, upper and lower motor mount/linkage and radiator. The rest is 2008, including engine, wiring harness, gauges, fuel tank, muffler and parking brake. The radiator cooling fan is also a 2008. I used a modified 2008 windscreen and actually had to cut a notch out of the fuel tank so it would clear the throttlebody. I made an adapter to join the throttle cable outer tubes and used a tandem bicycle rear brake inner cable. Works great. The dominator headlights work well, the downsized rear view mirrors are bar end mirrors with a modified mounting adapter. The signal lights and rear tail/brake lights are all incandescent and from a Honda Rukus 2013. I used an XL Tillett CLONE seat with adjusters, Sparko CLONE open top wheel, and Bozo the CLONE yellow paint. Actually Hummer Yellow. I installed Bridgestone hoop tires and OEM brake pads, All Balls Bearings and cut down SOLID GL1100 Goldwing FRONT axles instead of the Burgman hollow ones.

Now that I think of it, my trike is a bit of a mutt. None of the extras cost a lot of money individually, but everything adds up. The only (major???) modification to the frame was to cut the lower shock linkage mounts and move them left a bit. The 2007 and newer engine linkage attach points are not in the same position as the 2006 and older. No big deal. I also cut out the fuel tank mounts too and made my own.

This has been a real deja voues moment and I don't really need to do a recap on stuff already on the forum...

Hope this helps. By the way, the ideal spot to mount the mirrors is on the vertical support just in fwd of the X-O side frame gussets. Bar end mirrors are great.

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[davej98002]

I do not think Suzuki will change much in the future on the Burgman 400. All the changes will be cosmetic and you guys trash that anyway. Going from the smaller tire to the 2007 up larger ones will make pot holes and such a bit better. Put some Dr Pully 18 or 19 gram sliders and a Hit clutch and it will pull real nice.

If you go over to the BURGMANUSA.COM web page you can read all about the 400.

Going to a 2005 and up Burgman 650 would require a longer frame and some longer upper and lower control arms to make it wider for the Ackerman angle. The Power button would give a boost of low end power for twisty hills and it has an added effect of much greater engine braking over the 400 when going down those twisty hills. When you push the power button at say 50 MPH and let off the throttle, you had better lightly pull the brake lever to put the brakelights on because its like dropping two gears and dropping the clutch on a shiftier bike. The 6 speed paddle shiftier is nice at times, it does not really shift gears but the computer picks 6 set pulley positions. And you can lock in in OD (overdrive) 6th to keep the RPM's at about 4,000 @ 70 MPH. When you go from a dead stop and hammer the throttle, the computer sets the RPM at about 3500 RPM until the ECVT gears up to about 40 MPH and then the RPMs will climb all the way to 8,500 and about 122 MPH. Yes I do like the 650.

[edvb]

Dave no disrespect but let us get the facts straight for the last time.

Both Roger and I have probably over 3000 miles each on our Eco Exo R's
The Burgman 400 2007-2015 is the proper engine for the trike going forward.

The Burgman 650 is NOT the engine for the Eco Exo R frame so please quit trying to make it so in your dreams as it is not viable.

Kelvin probably has a updated model that has better weather protection but will be using the basic Eco Exo R frame.

Kelvin said if you are serious in getting a frame he will build and ship one to you.

You keep pushing on a frame or design that was never made to fit a Burgman 650. Accept it or look for something else to fit the vehicles you have laying around. But please I would rather not hear about it again going forward.

IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU !!!

I am sure Kelvin has plenty to worry about getting the Eco Exo R off the ground.

If he can get a few frames made up ready to ship in the next few months great!!

If not be ready to take orders to ship in early fall for the winter projects that people will want to do.

Kelvin I wish you the best of luck. Feel free to contact me or PM me if you have a question I might be able to answer.

Focus on getting Erik's Eco Exo R inspected and signed off. Priority #1.

Get the new prototype finished for Stoneleigh . Burn the oil to get this done!

After that Kelvin things should go smoothly.

Edward

[davej98002]

I will not bring up the 650 anymore.  Just replying to a portion of what Kelvin posted. I am Sorry.

Jan 21, 2016 22:25:27 GMT qdos said:

Hi Ed,

Just a quick reply but Yes I'll produce a kit for any serious customer that wants to place an order for an Eco Exo.

I'm also aware of the earlier Burgman being a bit hard to find suitable donors for so I'm interested in any preferences for specific donor bikes, as you know I have looked at the 650 also but that's a really big drive-train which isn't going to fit the Eco Exo as it stands.

[edvb]

No Problem Dave

You are a great guy but we need to see this project going forward.

2007-2015 Burgman 400 will be in good supply moving forward so the target Eco Exo R should incorporate all the parts available for the Eco Exo R.


There will be changes in the front hoops holding the wheels and using the new calipers to make it work well.

Roger and I had this discussion and he has it all figured out. He is one smart cookie and flapped me down many times during our discussion on what I wanted to do.

He became one of my best friends and we talk weekly.

I think you be wise to wait till Stoneleigh to see the new model.
Then again it will be more costly and to tell you the truth the original is just about perfect with the changes I made.

Just get the basic kit and you will go from there. Looking for a 2007-20015 Burgman 400 crashed cheap.

Damm Roger, Fred and I are all getting it together on something that will blow your mind. Be somebody or die it's up to you!

Edward

[qdos]

Hey Guys, I really do appreciate your enthusiasm and you're all correct. It's pretty darned good seeing you all independently coming up with similar ideas! I do wish there were more hours in the day along with all the resources of the mass production guys to do all this stuff but you can be sure that I am indeed aiming to do pretty much all of the above.

Unfortunately though there are limitations on us all and no magic wands but I'm not at all bad at killing more than one bird with a stone so to speak. I know we would all love to see things move along at a rate of knots but it's generally best to get the foundations set right first and figure out a plan of action. Oddly enough, as I've just said you're pretty much all on the same hymn sheet.

I really do wish I'd gone and moved over to the US some 15 years ago sometimes as you guys really do illustrate one of the best things I found over there amongst the people I met there along with friends and family I already have. That is your "Hell that sounds a good idea let's do it!" attitudes. I love American positivity, over here it's like banging your head on a dozen brick walls how negative so much of this little island I live on can be, but hey we don't do too badly and we do like to do things right.

So once again thanks guys for your enthusiasm and dedication to these great little machines we all love. It's great having you all on-board and let's get along.

Kelvin

[roger32849]

I had the privledge of living in England for about 4 years. I was in the USAF stationed at RAF Bentwiers/Woodbridge in Suffolk county. I was there around the time of the Rendlesham Forest Incident. Mid to late 70's. I flew in the Base Aero club and with the RAFGSA. Winch launch gliders made of Balsa, cloth dope and aluminum were what I flew, along with Cessna 150's and 172's.

While stationed there, I found although we spoke the same language, it sounded a little more refined coming from the local folks. The cars absolutely amazed me. I loved the Mini's, Rover 3500, and my personal favorite was the Humber Scepter. Not the big "hotrods" like here, but small compact, packages of dynamite. All pre Common Market.

One of the other great things about living there was the ability to make almost ANYTHING. There was a shop of sorts on every block. Small cottage industries that could make everything for anything. The only head banging I encountered at all was the very high standard the Ministry of Transportation placed on the vehicle inspection program... or MOT. I am not knocking head banging, it leads to some brilliant results once the pain goes away. Good ideas are easy, hammering out the details require a mandatory amount of frustration, trial and error and head banging....

Now to keep on forum topic... Kelvin, you are at the helm of the Eco-Exo project, do what you need to do (including the required amount of head banging) to affect an upgraded design. You really need to look at the 2007 and newer build platform and see if you can make it happen. Finding a crashed Burgman shouldn't be all that difficult. Changing motor mounts and making the front hoops a little taller are the two major changes. Easy Peazy.

The idea of a Burgman 650 or silverwing 600 isn't necessarily a far fetched idea, but not for the Eco-Exo. The extra power could not be translated into a higher top end speed. The 400 already flirts with an 80 MPH top end anyway. A higher speed would require a much more sophiscated suspension and steering system. All that has a cost added.

My thoughts are this. If you are indeed going to upgrade the platform, add all the tabs necessary for mounting the GRP stuff, modify the tank area so the OEM air box fits beneath the fuel tank, make the transition from older model donor to newer model, and perhaps look into engineering a reverse... whether electric, or otherwise. Also, make the transition from Gel coat color to an actual color pallet selection..?. Or offer white only or primer but leave the frame bare. The Fiat steering rack is okay but the steering column and rack could be swapped out for another more popular (international) model... small Nissan, Honda or Toyota.

I agree with Ed, in order to move ahead and be successful, changes need to be made. Drop any 650 notions for now and once the newer 400 kits start selling, maybe a little R&D on more power might be okay. As we speak right here and right now, my trike is perfectly designed. Stuart Mills along with Scott Turner and co. Got it 100% right. I have not had any manufacturing or design problems arise. Massachusetts sets a higher safety requirement on vehicles than almost any other state. We are on an equal par with California. My build is not only DOT compliant, it is also FULLY emissions compliant as well. I have a Massachusetts license plate and inspection sticker on my rear fender, as well as a Massachusetts assigned Kit Manufactured VIN affixed to my chassis. Yes, they got it VERY RIGHT.

My two bits worth.?. If you are in the UK, it's about 3 Schillings.?

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[roger32849]

I have been checking the Eco-Exo forum, and there is no activity at all. It is difficult to stick to the true faith of the forum under these conditions. Since Kelvin has made a decision to sell his Manufacturing license, it looks pretty grim for future kits to be hitting the market unless a suitable buyer tosses his hat into the ring. Speaking of you Kelvin, I wish you all the best, you were a fantastic person to talk to, a great help on technical questions and I for one will miss your comments and entries on the forum. Good luck in all you do..

When it comes to the Eco-Exo-R I am very pleased with the design, the power options of 250cc to 400cc, and how it performs. I have fiercely and openly defended the power options offered for it. There are a few things that should be offered as factory (manufacturer) options or changes. With the older model donors getting more difficult to find, it would be a step in the right direction to make provisions for using a 2007 and newer donor. This would mean a change in engine mount location, utilizing the double rotor front rims, and changing the front brake caliper mounts. The fwd bottom of the fuel tank would need to be notched to make room for the throttle body, and the radiator needs different mounts.

Other options that should included are: an aftermarket intake filter to include PCV mount and intake air sensor mount, an air scoop for the radiator, perhaps a matching side cover.

The person that buys the license to manufacture hopefully will build kits for the donors that are available, and that will be available for a long time to come.

Every kit builder is different. Each of us sees something different in essentially the same kit. There are very striking difference between Jimmy Cox's, Ed VanBelkom's Mine and Eriks final outcome. Even Freds build (in progress) in Pennsylvania is unique. Even after being completed we still refine and tweak and add our own personality to what is already a nice product. Items like custom lights, stereo systems, mirrors, seats, fenders and so on are all the little updates and enhancment's that makes the Eco-Exo truly belonging to their respective owner.

So, who ever decides to step up and become a manufacturer of the Eco-Exo, it has so many possibilities they are nearly endless. All that is needed is to browse the forum and ask a few questions.

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts

[erik]

There are a number of changes in the design worth reconsidering wich would increase the over all quality. I believe Kelvin wanted to do it right in the first place but this takes time. I'd highy recommend not to make changes to the original design exept a possible new donor engine similar to the original specs Stuart and Scott gave the Exo whic is 120-400cc and make upgrades when production has settled. In this range I'd suggest a Honda PCX150 as a good alternative and I believe the airbox is facing rearwards on the CVT. I'd buy one brandnew without tax fees, build it in the chasis and pay lower tax when it's road legal. This way it's a brandnew drivetrain for decent money and marketing wise it'll last for a long time before an upgrade it needed.Unneeded parts can be sold easely because of the young shelf life and unused. Usually, a design lasts only 5 years which is the achillis heel of kitcars in general having older donor engines... As an example, I believe a tR1ke with a low milage 2002 R1 donor engine would be hard to source nowadays.

The front fork construction could be adressed in a later stadium but it's highly recommended to change the layout and have the wheel axle and caliper flange aligned before it is delivered to the costumer. There are various options to do this and is done correctly current owners could upgrade their Exo if desired.

There is lots of good ideas to be worth considering but the license owner just have to ask. I'm not presenting it on a silver plate.

Personally, I'm very keen on the E-trike design as well which would be ideal for a fuel efficient(!!!) PCX150 engine and because we can buy the plans and make changes if desired it could be lots of fun to build as well.

[roger32849]

I agree with you Erik, there are a lot of options worth considering for the Eco-Exo chassis. The engine options have certainly been debated on the forum as a regular menu item. While a smaller newer engine could be used, it would largely depend on where you would like to drive. Driving the lowlands where you live, it is mostly flat and a smaller engine would be perfect. I live in the foothills of the Berkshires. It is quite the opposite, the 400 Burgman gets me around the mountains just fine. Anything smaller might not get the job done. While power options might change, a suitable donor like most MEV products, will more than likely be a used vehicle, such as the Miata for the Exocet, and other kit vehicles. Not to many folks would feel comfortable buying a new scooter or motorcycle for the sole purpose of making it a donor. There are other options open, like the merging Chinese manufacturing market. I believe Kymco, utilizes a Yamaha designed engine, and they have a wide assortment of models from 50 cc all the way to 500cc on their scooters, and they also have a few motorcycles out as well, but not sure if all, or just some, have the Yamaha based power train.

I have been working on a few things on my Eco-Exo-R. Nothing very dramatic, just a small facelift. You know, like a nip and tuck here and there. I have gone past the design phase of it to getting the bits and pieces needed nearly finished. All that is needed now is a few common hardware items and a little color matched coating and I will be done. There is a thread entry where I outlined some changes I would like make. This falls in the middle somewhere, like a "phase 2" The newer instrument panel, dashboard with switches and shortened rear fender were last years mods, or "phase 1" I wasn't sure if this mod would be possible, but it looks good so far. I will post pictures when it is done.

I have not seen Kelvin on the forum since he announced he would not associate himself with anything MEV. I know you delivered your Eco-Exo-R to him to do the MVSA inspection. He actually mentioned getting your trike through that process as a priority. I hope this sudden change of direction for him doesn't alter that priority.

I need to get busy. It is about 7:30 AM and I am in need of coffee and a couple of eggs. When you get your trike through MVSA make sure you post it on the forum.

Roger
Worcester, Massachusetts